[distracted]

I was thinking about the process of prayer, it is obviously very old and is present in one form or another in most religions, how much did the formalised process spin out of human hope though? Hope precedes I'd think, did prayer give rise to religion? If we zap back through time then as conscious individuals our ancestors must have been driven by hope... hope when winter still bites and there is little food and no sign of spring, hope in the battle against disease, hope in the chase for food or the success of crops or foraging.

Hope is an urge that drives existence, the same urge must exist in animals surely? ... the search for food is base but has a focus, an aspiration...watch a dog waiting for a treat and it looks like it is 'consciously' shaking with excitement, it wants, it hopes, the persistance may not be there without human levels of reasoning though but when reasoned by humans does the hope morph into prayer? My childhood conditioning leads me to pray in times of real emotional worry for others, I cross the digits and pray or hope.... it is nothing more than hope though which is an aspirational position, but prayer is immediate despite my absence of belief, prayer is most focussed on immediate problems so I was wondering if formalised religion was born out of more focussed hope that worked, something like intense hope that gets realised and then vocalised?

[grandad]

may i just for one minute, or two whatever. was a guy who i used to pick up in the taxi. he'd had a weird type of stroke, it picked him up and threw him a few feet into his wall, was dread for quite a time, but thats not the story.
he took his wife and son and emigrated to s/africa. time passed the lad turned into a teenager and got himself a motorbike, but he crashed ending in a hospital bed with his dad by his side, he was dieing with no chance of survival. his dad sat holding him and prayed, he begged please take me not him. he told me its fake, there is no god, nothing.

[bazzad9]

the thing i find odd about praying is that if god is so all knowing and powerfull and able to control real events in the world surely a mere mortal asking an all knowing god to change things from the pleadings of a lesser un all knowing being is futile

whatever is happening is already known to and accpeted by god for reasons far to intricate and complicated for a mere mortal to understand

it depends on what definition of god your using though

also why does god answer a prayer for a parking space for some and not answer a prayer for healing an illness in the next

i think it is just hope ,in some cases its maybe just a way of formalising your goals or hopes ,for some its simply a way of doing nothing but using it as a way of convincing themselves they did do something to help ,often in times when they perhaps couldnt influence the outcomes ,which again leads back to hope i suppose

i think prayer is a pretty diverse subject under the surface

[troy]

My guess is that prayer is a way of allaying anxiety. Its to do with future events that we don't have any control over. Its quite infantile in that we assume someone can sort things out like our parents used to do. There have been studies that have shown that it absolutely makes no difference and can even have a negative effect. ( in the God Delusion by Dawkins). Its a way of trying to control things that we couldn't possibly have any control over. Hoping is wishing that things will turn out the way we want them to but prayer assumes that it is possible to alter the future chain of events by supernatural intervention.

[bazzad9]

the phrases "hope to god " and "pray to god " do seem to be interchangeable in common language

[AlbertScroggins]

form of meditation imo, though involving a deity to this and praying , nay pleading with [said deity of choice] - seems odd, to me
that said w/ most humblest of opinion, the 'flower of life' - evident everywhere, seems worthy of discussion

[troy]

Indeed , the God thing is so ingrained into our culture its takes a real positive effort to avoid using it. Thank God , God knows, God willing, Gor blimey (God Blind me) , phew !

[bazzad9]

AlbertScroggins, on 30 May 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

the 'flower of life' - evident everywhere, seems worthy of discussion

pattern seeking behaviour retrofitted would be my best guess this time of night

but it depends which part you want to discuss ,im willing to give it a go though (tomorrow)

[AlbertScroggins]

bazzad9, on 30 May 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

AlbertScroggins, on 30 May 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

the 'flower of life' - evident everywhere, seems worthy of discussion

pattern seeking behaviour retrofitted would be my best guess this time of night

but it depends which part you want to discuss ,im willing to give it a go though (tomorrow)

haa yeah, good idea



"pattern seeking behaviour retrofitted" oh dear what am I letting self in for I guess all of it's worthy,
perhaps I'll learn something
"tomorrow"
agreed
e2a; the pillow-head connection seems to be imminent

This post has been edited by AlbertScroggins: 30 May 2012 - 10:37 PM

[bazzad9]

hello albert

what i meant was its a really pretty patern thats can me made with a simple compass ,humans are naturally pattern seeking

pretty much every religion and more ufo, ,ancient alien theorists have all seen some signifcance in it

thats the short version

have a good kip mate

[strawberry]

Dear God, please give me or those I care about a slight statistical advantage over those around me.

I'm a good person/will be a good person.

Can you hear me?

[bennyblueboots]

bazzad9, on 30 May 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

the thing i find odd about praying is that if god is so all knowing and powerfull and able to control real events in the world surely a mere mortal asking an all knowing god to change things from the pleadings of a lesser un all knowing being is futile

whatever is happening is already known to and accpeted by god for reasons far to intricate and complicated for a mere mortal to understand

it depends on what definition of god your using though

also why does god answer a prayer for a parking space for some and not answer a prayer for healing an illness in the next

i think it is just hope ,in some cases its maybe just a way of formalising your goals or hopes ,for some its simply a way of doing nothing but using it as a way of convincing themselves they did do something to help ,often in times when they perhaps couldnt influence the outcomes ,which again leads back to hope i suppose

i think prayer is a pretty diverse subject under the surface

Agreed. I dont know why i bother. I really mean it genuinely. When i thought about it logically those are the conclusions i reached. Then again what is logical about chanting Engerland, engerland, engerland from behind a tv screen. As if that will effect the outcome. Nothing much logical about being Human. We re emotional beings.
It does however, work for me. In a devasting crisis 'hope' is probabaly one of the more useful emotional positions. I for one aint going down without a fight and if i have to use prayer to get me through a tight spot well thats one more weapon to me.

[AlbertScroggins]

bazzad9, on 30 May 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

hello albert

what i meant was its a really pretty patern thats can me made with a simple compass ,humans are naturally pattern seeking

pretty much every religion and more ufo, ,ancient alien theorists have all seen some signifcance in it

thats the short version

have a good kip mate

hi bazza

it seems much more than a pretty pattern sought though, it be in most everything from the microscopic to , say the [more easily visible to the eye] sunflower.

thanks but didn't have a good sleeps tbh , the lil brain not working s'well t'day -it's one of those days f'me. though it's interesting to me - in a niggly way this flower of life subject , so probably be back trying to figure it out ....
*albert gone back to bed now [ bah -where's that sunshine heat gone]
cheers

[Chris P]

Hope and a lack of knowledge. The first god was probably the sun and the stars the heavens, like praying for the sun to rise everyday. The belief that we can influence the universe by praying (theism).

Ancient humans, having little knowledge of how the world works and looking up at the sun, moon, stars, and world around them, while tripping on magic mushrooms or other hallucinogenic drugs, thinking where the fuck am I and what is going on.

Surely praying should be scientifically testable, I mean if everybody in the world prays to relieve world hunger and inhumanity then if it works we will be sorted. The power of belief and positive thinking is interesting but I don't believe there is a God to answer prayers.