LED Wilma hybrid DWC with major feeding/deficiency issues!

[samokybacon 243]

Hi All, so i guess i better start with a little back story to my current situation!

 

Ive been growing for awhile and have used the same setup now for quite some time, MH for Veg and HPS for flower.

 

I'd been considering upgrading to LED for awhile and have been following folks on here to see how they have been getting on. I decided to get a Scopex 900 when i sore they were available at just under 600 quid from DIYLED, a proper bargain by anyones terms!

 

Now im in a 1.2m square tent (upgrading to 1.5m planned for my next round) so i new that the light was gunna be more than i needed for this round. So i decided to start things off the way i always do under a CFL to start,, then once potted and onto the wilma under a 250w MH.  

 

All was going well, ladies were topped and all 4 were looking grand, lush health new growth and no signs of anything but what was looking to be a outstanding round. So with everything running smoothly and the ladies looking in good shape (just shy of 7 weeks from seed) i decided to break out the LED and see what all the chat was about.

 

This unfortunately this was the start of everything going very wonky and was just over two weeks ago now. 

 

First issue was temps, which i think may have cause a bit of shock as at one point they dipped to 19 for a short period. However i managed to get temps to sit between 23 and 29 with lights on and off for the following week or so then refined that range further.

 

Second issue was the fact id been running a 24hr on veg, with MH this was ok but i think the 350w of LED was too much to run for 24hr straight so introduced a 20/4 cycle.

 

Third issue was EC,, now at first i thought i had over fed cos i got what looked like burnt tips, EC was at 0.9 so i dropped it down a couple of points,, but very quickly realised that i had a falling EC ( and the ladies looked hungry) and upped my EC every day/every other as the RES EC just kept on falling after 12hrs or so,, this went on for 9 days, until i hit a RES EC of 1.9.

 

By this time i thought it best to do a fresh RES as all this topping up is never a good idea for obvious reasons. So 4 days ago i did a fresh RES at 1.8 EC.

 

And within 12hrs the opposite started to happen,,, the EC had risen 1.9! 

 

So over the last three days ive been going in revers,, every time checking the EC to find that it has climbed back up and then me lowing the EC by adding fresh RO,, until this morning when ive knocked it all the way down to 1.0.

 

Suffice to say the ladies are not happy,, i dont know if one of them is gunna be recoverable and over the last 72hrs another one is looking proper sick.

 

I think they have lock out,, but not sure what else i can do. I also think there is an underlying deficiency which is why i cant nail my EC. Ive suspected it was a MAG issue and have tried some foiler feeding a couple of times but to no effect. I havent wanted to introduce anything else feed wise into the RES as the rising/falling issue has not been solved.

 

Sooooooooo, here are the details and some pics (taken 2 days ago) of my set up to provide a little more clarity to anyone reading. I will add close up pics from today as things are looking worse.

 

This LED malarky has been a steep re-learning curve to say the least but with my environment now steady with temps between 23.5 and 28.5, EC @ 1.0 i dont know how else to combat the lock out/deficiency issue thats now causing havoc.

 

Wilma 4 pot hybrid dripper + DWC. (decent roots in the res for all but the sickest looking lady) Drippers are on for 15mins 4 times during the light cycle.

Advanced nuets A & B with RO water, system is chilled with water temps steadily between 20 & 21. A little silver bullet added to prevent pathogens.

Scopex 900 running @ 360w hung at aprox 80cm above canopy in a 1.2m sq tent, 3 fans internally circulating the air + temp controlled extraction. 

Air temps are between 25-28 lights on and 23.5-26 lights off.

 

 

 

 

 

[Barnes 0]

Weird how its not affected them all the same? You've got some decent stems too.. I've never grown with LED but ive done several Wilma grows under HPS in coco. Could it be the balls maybe? (washed properly?)

 

Also just to say i've never used the silver bullet or reverse osmosis either so can't comment. Could something there be amiss maybe? Those big fluctuations in EC arent good but you obviously know that. In mine  i just do a fresh res change every week. I know its tempting to just top up but i only do that right at the start in mine. Always glad to get the last bit of waste out with the maxijet pump and down the drain and filled up again with fresh. 

 

Hows your PH been doing?

Edited December 11, 2021 by Barnes

[stu914 42,100]

5 hours ago, samokybacon said:

i decided to break out the LED and see what all the chat was about.

 

This unfortunately this was the start of everything going very wonky and was just over two weeks ago now. 

 

Looks like too much light has thrown all your other parameters off kilter, the temps shock and high EC compounded the problem.

 

I've got 2 x 275 scopes covering the same area as you and have them 3 feet above canopy set at 200w (100w each) for the whole of veg.

Never gone above 400w flowering and for the rest of the grow. Once you tweak the light you should be ok...good luck...

 

 

[samokybacon 243]

22 hours ago, stu914 said:

 

Looks like too much light has thrown all your other parameters off kilter, the temps shock and high EC compounded the problem.

 

I've got 2 x 275 scopes covering the same area as you and have them 3 feet above canopy set at 200w (100w each) for the whole of veg.

Never gone above 400w flowering and for the rest of the grow. Once you tweak the light you should be ok...good luck...

 

 

Hi Stu, thanks for chiming in so quick, your advice is always massively appreciated mate as i know we share a similar set up,, and had wondered whether you might be running LED's these days. 

 

I had wondered about the light distance,, i did speak to DIYLED about hang heights for a 1.2 and thought i had it hung high enough,, maybe not! 

 

So unfortunately there are only two real options available to me (whilst i'm still in the 1.2m) as i'm on the lowest setting (360w) already on the Scopex (hadn't realised quite what a best of a unit it is!)

 

1, Move the carbon filter & fan beneath the Scopex and raise the light by another 25cm (literally just shy of the ceiling) bringing the hanging height to just over 1m from canopy.

This option also brings with it issues of where the fans being placed above the Scope to force the warm air down are gunna be palced to work effectively,, hmmmm.

 

 

2, sack off the Scopex and go back to the 250w or 400w MH and get them happy again. Trying the Scopex once they stable, more developed and ready to flip,, if not mayb post flip?? 

This option also has its issues as i dont want them to be having EC or any other issues in flower for all the obvious reasons.  

 

 

 

 

[stu914 42,100]

@samokybacon

 

I'd go back to what you know for now until they recover. I didn't realise you couldn't go below 360w with that unit,

I would think it'll be good for flowering though, certainly better than any other light that's out there,

I would maximise your height before you use it again as well.

Once you get it right the results are phenomenal, my previous hps grows usually yielded about 0.9 gpw

and on my very first grow with a little 150 led returned 1.6gpw...still recovering from the shock...quality was up too.

 

Following along...

 

 

[Guest]

What size filter have you got?  I know you're using wilmas and that will dictate your floor space, but can you fit the filter on the floor with the pots? 

Mine is sat on a couple of bricks to aid air flow. 

[samokybacon 243]

Hi all,, thought id post some progress pics.

 

Tenet is 23-29 air temps

EC1.0

MH250w in a parabolic

 

So its been 5 full days of stable EC @ 1.0,,, until this morning that is and it seamed to have creeped up to 1.1. Which may of been a bye product of me giving the res a top up 24hrs before. The top up was 25ltrs @ 1.0 (res is 50Ltr brimming) but may have just be on the strong side,, Ive knocked it back down to 1.0 with some straight up RO, so will wait and see what happens over the weekend.

 

Other than that,, things have been looking much better,, not a 100% recovered but for 5 days a marked improvement. Looking at some of the heads, the colour is still a long way off from what id like. Maybe some deficiency still?? I'm probably just being impatient tho and they will right them selfs given some more time...

 

Gave them a little thinning after these pics but taking it relatively easy whilst they are in recovery.

 

Gunna need to flip pretty soon as things are filling out rapidly. Thinking to put them under the 400MH Sunday so they can get used to abit more light before hitting them with the LED at 360w.

 

@fatboy77 yes mate, thats what i was thinking to do with the filter, its gunna be tight in 1.2 as its a big ass filter but itl fit. It should also mean i have some decent head room for the scopex.

  Do you find it helps with drawing the heat down inside the tent?  How do you keep your temps up/even with the LED?

 

@stu914 do you ever use any additives other than buddas tree? Have you noticed any diference in feeding since going LED?

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by samokybacon
pics added

[stu914 42,100]

15 hours ago, samokybacon said:

do you ever use any additives other than buddas tree? Have you noticed any diference in feeding since going LED?

 

Only the buddhas mate, with sensi ph perfect grow and bloom...that's the lot....

 

I've not noticed any difference in feeding regime, my system doesn't like anything above 1.2ish ec whatever the plant

and it stays pretty stable at that.

 

Yours are looking happier now, nice fresh growth with just a little damage from the led, they'll be fine...

[samokybacon 243]

Hi all & @stu914 ,,,, so its been 4/5 days since my last post and things aren't going well, there is definitely something up with their feeding and a deficiency is now shining through.

 

All four of the ladies are showing the same issue,, new growth is mottled and kinda damaged, discoloured. To the touch they are brittle with pronounced spines.

 

The EC was up again yesterday from 1.0 to 1.1! So I've done a fresh RES this morning at 0.9. I didn't wanna lower it any more as it seams very weird that at this point they aren't getting hungrier!?!? 

 

Enviroment is stable with temps between 23 - 29 degress.

 

The only thing i can think thats fucked things up is the RES top up i did about a week ago now? Mayb they had used up the one neut that they needed and didn't have enuf from the top up?!? The top up adding additional neuts that they already had enough of,, causing the rising EC im now seeing??? I dunno?? Anyone???

 

I did change the 250w MH yesterday to the 400w MH but these issues have proceded that so still scratching my head....

 

 

 

 

 

[stu914 42,100]

@samokybacon

 

Hi bud,

Is it just the upper leaves or the whole plant showing defs?

I always change res every 7-10 days without fail, certainly paid for it when I forgot or got lazy.

 

[samokybacon 243]

On 21/12/2021 at 2:49 PM, stu914 said:

@samokybacon

 

Hi bud,

Is it just the upper leaves or the whole plant showing defs?

I always change res every 7-10 days without fail, certainly paid for it when I forgot or got lazy.

 

Hi mate,, all of the new growth seams to be majorly effected on all 4 of them now. Even the biggest most established lady's new growth seams to all distorted, discoloured and brittle. And it just seams to be getting worse. Some of the lower leaves are getting pale and showing issues but not the same as the new growth.

 

I'm gunna be more militant about a res change every 7 days. EC has been stable at 0.9 but i get the feeling that it might rise by this time tomorow,, mayb they are locked out again? There are still suffering from purple stems but i guess this is stress induced by the feed being wrong?!?

 

One thing i have noticed is my Humidity is low at 45%,, would that be contributing factor if my air temps are getting up to 29?

 

I'm gunna have to flip at the end of the week as im all outta space,, not ideal as i really didn't want to flip whilst there was issues. Any ideas?? 

Edited December 22, 2021 by samokybacon

[stu914 42,100]

12 hours ago, samokybacon said:

purple stems

 

This is generally a sign of feeding issues (not always) Are you able to take a look at the roots just to make sure there's nothing untoward

going on down there?

 

I use plain tapwater and not RO which could be contributing to the problem...not sure on that and your EC seems very low.

 

@GSZZ...What do you make of this situation bud?

[samokybacon 243]

2 hours ago, stu914 said:

 

This is generally a sign of feeding issues (not always) Are you able to take a look at the roots just to make sure there's nothing untoward

going on down there?

 

I use plain tapwater and not RO which could be contributing to the problem...not sure on that and your EC seems very low.

 

@GSZZ...What do you make of this situation bud?

 

So ive checked the roots and they look fine, a little discoloured from the neuts but other than that they look ok. The one lady that was all fucked up has the least roots in the RES but the roots that are their look ok. Im gunna get an extra set of hands in a little while to see if we can left the lid from the res for a better look and some pics.

 

EC,, well its not dropping from 0.9 so they cant be hungry can they?!?!  Ive intentionally kept the res water level low for the last couple of days to see if the EC climbs or falls,,, so far it seams stable at 0.9. Ive just added 10ltrs at 0.9 as the res was very low. 

 

I use RO water because thats what Advanced Nuets say to use. Ive contacted the directly before in the past. I let the RO come up to room temp before adding and check every 25ltr drum for EC before i make up a fresh bucket to then pump into the RES. 

 

Ive have used tap water before and had issues with my high background EC of 0.4. I'd much rather use tap water due to the cost of RO!

[Arthur Mix 23,517]

No mention of Ph maybe I missed it are you running an air stone per chance no mention of Wilma res temps that I can see , maybe I missed that also  you could try cutting the RO 25% with tap water might help , need to know the other stuff I mentioned .

Edited December 23, 2021 by Arthur Mix
Addition

[samokybacon 243]

Just now, Arthur Mix said:

No mention of Ph maybe I missed it are you running an air stone per chance no mention of Wilma res temps that I can see , maybe I missed that also  

 

Hiya, most things mentioned in my first post,, but heres a recap...

 

i dont measure PH as its not required when using Advanced Neuts.

 

Res temps are steady at 20-21 through a recirculating Hailer chiller unit. 

 

RES oxygenation is through a pump in the res running constantly forming a bulge to break surface tension,, there is also the chiller pump running constantly that returns the water to the RES in a waterfall. The chiller pump is recirculating the system efficiently as i run the res two thirds full most of the time at around 30-35ltrs 

 

Done a fair few grows with this set up and its never been an issue before.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by samokybacon