ongoing problems with sick plants and enviroment...

[fatcalyx 1,048]

Hello everyone!

I hope you are all well and nicely stoned!

I have been having a list of never ending problems that i am just starting to get past but just cant quite clear the end of it. A short time ago i done built a whole new grow room out of wood. The idea was to make the most of my spare space and improve some of my equipment. For those of you interested in knowing more about the spec just check this link and you will get the run down...

https://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=372839&hl=

To start with i did have some clones that i had vegged up and put in the new box under the new CMH lighting. They were quite healthy to begin with but the did need a pot up but nothing major...

Its worth mentioning that in the same room i have 2 tents with plants in with no problems. One mother tent with no real problems, and a 60cm squre tent with a 150w mh. Both no problems.

I vegged them up for about 4 weeks or so and they had barley grown. They hated the environment. I also had really bad problems with fungus gnats and i put the problems down to that as it was really bad and nothing worked in getting rid of them. I used gnat off, multitude of sprays, smoke bombs, and gnat nix (recycled ground glass on top 4” of pot to stop them reproducing). Nothing made a blind bit of difference, i even let the pots dry out to the point they nearly started to wilt before i watered to stop the larvae. No hope so i decided to let the plants die in the pot as they were clearly not going to produce anything worth the time judging by the 3” growth in about 4 weeks. After they all died in their pots i cleared out my growing space and sprayed everything down with multiple pesticides about 4 times, let of smoke bombs daily for about a week and half.

Ok i chalked them up to the fungus gnats which i thought was funny as they aren’t the most harmful pests but i had a lot of them. In the mean time i had started some seeds as i wanted to do some pheno hunting and hopefully find a stud male. I cracked 10 x Yeti OG F3 from loompa farms and 5 white OG from karma genetics. They were going with no problem or hiccup in the 60cm tent under the 150 MH. I eventually repotted them and put them in the wooden box under the CMH bulbs...

After about a day they had all drooped heavily and looked like they were on their way out. I thought it might be the light intensity as temps were fine so i turned one of the CMH bulbs off and checked regularly. Temps stayed fine but still, no joy as they just got worse if anything. They had stayed droopy as fuck and started loosing colour from the bottom upwards for about 4 days before i decided to see what would happen if i put them under normal MH lighting as that was the biggest change from their previous environment in which they were flourishing and healthy. I put in a normal 400W mh light and went to work. I cam back 8 hours later to find all my plants not drooping and looking about 60% better. I was and still am puzzled as to why this is was, but i was just happy to see i still had plants that could recover and i could still have a decent phenol hunt.

Thought i was out of the woods but the gnats managed to come back but have so far not been as bad as before and i have been adding liquid oxy /oxy plus and gnat off to the water to hopefully kill any larvae. Any way the plants started to droop again i noticed so i got chatting to a few good pals that also grow as i was growing tired and hoped a fresh eye to the situation would help... it did as they got me to check my humidity and it was low at around 25% and in all my other tents it was about 40% - 45%. I got a large bowl of water and left out and the humidity rose to around 30% and the next day they had started to go back to normal. Since then i have brought 2 humidifiers to run in there during lights on to raise humidity, they work and the plants are mostly happy and all new growth looks good on most of them, a couple look a little rough still but nothing to far gone. I am also going to line the box with plastic silver or white sheeting to hopefully stop the wood drawing too much humidity out of the air.

Now the thing i need your help on is the fact i have noticed that my plants are still drooping in the last 3-4 hours of their day and i cant work out why as the next morning after their 6hrs darkness they are all perked back up and look healthy. But they look like shit for the last few hours. I have just potted up 10 Sour Power OG from karma genetics and put in the environment a day or 2 ago now and these plants don’t droop in the last few hours of the day as you will be able to see in the pictures. Any suggestions on why this is or what is causing it. All plants are in hand watered coco, and under 2 x 400w MH lights with lights on tmeps around 25c-27c.

Any advice on plant drooping, humidity, gnat management would be great as these are all new problems from me.

Thanks in advanced for reading and trying to help with my problems, i know it was a long read and appreciate any and all help as i just need things to get back on track as i have run out of bud a good while ago and don’t want to waste any more time, electricity or plants.

Manny Thanks Fatcalyx

[fatcalyx 1,048]

I will upload a picture tomorrow of the same plants not drooping just to show you. There is no temp difference between droop and non droop btw.

FC

[~Sanctuary~ 3,759]

I've always used harkers for pests and that's always worked for me.

How are the roots looking?

The droop could be down to a few things, underwatered, overwatered, light intensity, nutrient levels, pot size amongst other things.

If they perk up after the dark period it points towards light intensity, they should grow out of that fairly quick though.

They look pretty stretched out on the other hand, how much are they being fed? I've found plants that bolt up like that are hungry or looking for more light, or they could be root bound.

A few things to think over anyway, it's late and I'm pretty baked

[botanics 44,223]

@@fatcalyx

Humidity I've noticed mate plays a massive factor to them until they are well established (and is an underestimated factor of growing success earlier on I've learned)...what I've observed is that if the plants are small but in a big room the environment can play havoc with them, they slow like you've experienced and struggle unless the environment is manipulated to raise the RH a CONSIDERABLE amount.

When I ran the IP autos from the off in my main cab, I put them in a gravel tray and then put that tray inside a large gravel tray filled with water and left that under my sodium (was like a moat all around them) it would evap off quite quickly reallly being directly under a sodium and I was putting water in there every day (i just used to keep topping it up), That system worked well for me and would employ it again if I had too.

However, with the observations I've made (some may not agree with me here and could be a bit contraversial, but two systems are exactly the same), I've found that a better way for the first few weeks is a small box, NO ventilation apart from some holes top and bottom to allow for a more natural convection and NO circulation fans and this is now how I run my plants for at least the first 3 weeks (my current SS diary plants have had this treatment and are happy and been no bother) however, I run this box with B22 CFL's (25 W) and start them under one, then three to give me 75W after a few days and then 100W as tey are currently under (later this week they will be going into the main cab and under the halide, but I will try and put some extra humidity in there via a set up of sorts as if this is low I'm certain the plants slow down and lose vigour, they really do love humidity it seems and grow much better with very high levels of it.

So my tips are for seedling and veg are to drop the ventilation and circulation, let them regulate their environment more themselves and increase the humidity (I'd be inclined to reason that levels of 75 to 85 % would be a good target if measuring it) and do this in an environment that is not too large and area and increase that area size accordingly with the plants growth (at some point I may do a study to see what size environment in relation to plant size is optimal as I have been thinking about this quite a bit since I had trouble with my last run and cocking things up a bit)

Hope there's something in there that can help you out a bit dude

[sweetgrower 891]

If the problem only happens in one tent, is this tent a different brand from the rest ?

There was issues with cheap tents out gassing and killing off plants inside them... I had one myself many moons ago and took ages to work out it was the tent that was killing the plants. @@fatcalyx

[trypsy summers 120]

If the problem only happens in one tent, is this tent a different brand from the rest ?

There was issues with cheap tents out gassing and killing off plants inside them... I had one myself many moons ago and took ages to work out it was the tent that was killing the plants. @@fatcalyx

Good point@@sweetgrower,

Couple of things;

Come August you'll be glad that you've got low humidity!

Re current situation, I read your ish ,and from when you've mentioned Coco, I can empathize with your 'finicky' problems! Have you checked your PH levels?

Also as I recently mentioned to someone else, you might want to check your magnesium levels (especially with coir) as that deficiency is something that creeps, but once it takes hold, it can be be really pernicious (and maddening/saddening!) From the pictures you've shown, there could also be an over-watering issue going on, I know that sounds contrary and I couldn't blame you for saying "Yeah Right! GTFOH with that!" But the thing with Coir, it can retain a lot of water, and it doesn't have any nutrients of its own per se! Which you have to bear in mind when you're feeding.

As for the gnats; Oxy plus and all that stuff such as Gnat off, might do something, sometimes! But the sure fire way of getting rid of gnats & larvae etc, is to use DE (diatomaceous earth) mixed in to the medium and/or sprinkled on the top, that stuff is a known stopper! Or even put some sand (or even perlite) to stop them from entering the medium. DE with Sand is an effective barrier, it doesn't have to be caked on, but the razor edges on the DE will make them gnat's feel like their one of those victims in a 'SAW' movie!!

Pure Peace

[fatcalyx 1,048]

alright here are the pics from today about 11am. nealry all of them are back to normal bar 1 or 2

and one syill drooping

FC

[fatcalyx 1,048]

@@sweetgrower the probem only occurs in a grow room I built out of wood. I have tents in the same room with plants that are doing fine. all getting watered the same exact nutrients the same water in the same levels of EC and PH

@@~Sanctuary~ i really don't think i am under or over watering them and the nutrients they and all the other healthy plants have been getting seem fine as all other plants are thriving and these were doing well before on the same nutes. the reason for the height on all the taller ones is because of the strain, its known to be very very stretchy with not much brancing unless topped and trained. If the the light was the problem wouldnt the younger plants also droop ?

@@botanics i do also belive humidity may have a part to play in my plants over all health, in my old set up of a 1.2m tent i only ever had to Dehumidify when in flower to reduce risk of bud rott. now that i am venting out of the property and i made the groom out of wood the humidity seems to want to naturally drop. I do also agree with what your saying about sizze of the grow room for the plants, but it really isnt excessive compared to things ive done before. and they were vegged up in a 60cm tent to start with under a 150w mh so they werent plunged strait in at the deep end. Maybe as i re pot them again and they start to get bigger and the envroment become more filled with perspiring foliage things may level out a bit.

@@trypsy summers i suppliment with magne cal from PM at half ml per litre through veg as i have always done and have been doing with all other plants, i only step it up in mid flower. My background EC is 0.8 so i dont ever have much room for nutes. i would agree with the defficiancy if any of the other plants had signs of the same thing but they dont. i odnt think it is over watering other than the one that is still drooping in the newer pics as it happens whether they have just been watered or when they need watering or when they are in the inbetween stage it always happens in the evenings. it looks like they have gone to sleep ealry or something.

As for the gnats the gnat off has been doing nothing, as said i have already tried using the glass stuff that is meant to cut them up and stop them laying egss, it didnt do shit all, ive been using oxy plus for the past couple watewrings hoping it will kill off the larvae.

roots all seem fine and white as well. i will try repotting the bigger one very soon to see if that might make a difference as they are all well rooted. I also need to try and take cuts from all of the yeti og and white og.

thanks for the help

FC

[crticalcontent 4,875]

What wood have you built the room out of. Some boards release toxic chemicals when warm due to the bonding agents in them

Edited December 13, 2016 by crticalcontent

[Sp1n 11,824]

They look really lush & healthy in the last set of pics

[vince noir rock n roll star 84,539]

ill bet a penny that your problem is a cold draught somewhere at the pot height ,if the plants are happy as larry during most of the day and then suddenly the droop starts in the later part of the day then itll be a rise in humidity ..you say theres no change in temp ,i guarantee there is in the soil ,if that soil is moist then ambient temp will cool it down quicker than the surrounding air ,thermal bridging basically ,the warm air goes to the cold area ..and if the colder area is greater than the amount of warm air the cold area will win over ..try wrapping some bubblewrap around the pot and then go searching for any crack that could allow a tiny flow of colder air in ...but thats my guess ,i had a very similar problem at our old flat years ago persistantly the same every time ,until i found a small hole in the brickwork that would feel like a trickle of cold damp air hitting one corner of the grow ..

either way best of luck chap sorting it out ,as for fungus gnats ..good old diatemecious earth on the surface of the pots should piss em off

[Phoenix 18,123]

Did you use m.d.f or h.d.f. or cheap ply?

They can all off gas.

Marine ply is a safe bet for grooms...

Hope its something easy to rectify...

Could be a draught as mentioned before..

[fatcalyx 1,048]

@@crticalcontent the box is made out of 18mm ply wood, that is all i know as it was a mate that built it for me, i just old him what size i wanted.

@@Sp1n cheers, most of them look alright for most of the day.

@@vince noir rock n roll star i have sealed the box with bathroom sealent once it was built and painted so there is no air coming in anywhere other than the intake and a little bit from around the door maybe. all the air being pulled into the box is frommy bedroom as that is where the box is in my home. the air temperature in my bedroom is 22c or 71F and never gets cold in there. if it was that would it not also affect the plants that didnt droop? even when the evening time rolls around it doesent get cold in my room due to heating and other tents on the go. no other plants in the other tents droop? I will give wrapping the pots in bubble wrap a go as soon as i can get hold of some. there is no notable rise in humidity at any part of the day either. its been between 34-38% today.

as for the diatemecious earth i will have to look into that, is it ok to use with coco?

the only thing i can think of is that the intake that is at pot level could be cooliong the coco down? I've alwyas belived you should have your intake coming into your grow room low and out take high?

@@Phoenix it was made out of plywood 18mm thick, i cant remember what wood it was though.

i just took cuts off of all the yeti OG and the White OG in the hope that they root so i can maybe start agin or something. who knows, im just sick of the all this time of failed growing pouring my time energy and money into it for it all to constantly fail. its depressing me.

cheers for the help

FC

Edited December 13, 2016 by fatcalyx

[vince noir rock n roll star 84,539]

. the air temperature in my bedroom is 22c or 71F and never gets cold in there

theres your answer in my honest opinion chap . ..if the air temp is 71 then a moist soil or coco will be around 65 deg ..id personally check that out by putting a thermometer in the coco see what the temps are in the morning ..

[fatcalyx 1,048]

@@vince noir rock n roll star I don’t consider 22c/71f to be cold air being sucked into the environment as it is the same air all the other tents are sucking in with no problem, and it is the same temperature during the day ( no droop ) as it is in the evening ( with droop ).

Would you consider that temp to be too cold to be used as an intake as it has not been a problem for me before or even for these same plants when in a tent? It is in the upper half of what is considered room temperature. and it didn’t affect the plants in the wetter coco in the same environment either?

I will order some bubble wrap tonight or if I can get some while I am out tomorrow I will.

I will also measure temperature of the coco in the pots and report back to see what the deal is. What temperature would you say is an acceptable range for the growing medium? As I know 20c is what is recommended for water temperatures as water can hold the maximum oxygen at that temp.

I have some room to lower the lights which would in turn increase temperature, would you suggest this for the mean time?

Thank you

FC