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AutoMaster

Dutch Passion Desfrán Test Grow

72 posts in this topic

Zero, the market gets what it wants, I talked to Charlie and Dubi about this years ago, their sales had fallen through the floor, the only way they could see to go forward was to start producing feminised seeds, at the time we talked the seed demand was about 70% wanting feminised versions, I imagine today the demand is nearer to 95+%, also today a vast majority of varieties produced are from selected clone lines.

Yes its a dead end when it comes to genetic diversity for future breeding and protects the seed maker, there are a few like myself and ugorg that produce standard lines. There are a growing group of people making their own seeds, how good they are I don't know.

IMHO it is pointless to complain about feminised/S1/auto seeds they are here to stay, if more people bought standard seed lines, seed makers would produce them.

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Ot1 we are not talking about the market demand. Cannabiogen has a feminized version of Destroyer. So thats not the point.

The point here is that DP ripped off the work of a real breeder and sell it trying to fool the people.

That's the point.

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If any doubt, let's see what its creator says:

(screenshot taken from the argentinian room in Cannabiscafe http://www.cannabiscafe.net/foros/showthread.php/147196-La-Leyenda-de-la-DesFran-!!!/page2 )

gallery_74866_10021_17452.jpg

I'm going to translate the highlighted sentences for you:

"As they said I got the strain through a clone from DF Seed Bank (I will be always grateful clapping.gif ) around October 2007. On 2nd November exactly, she already was the queen of my garden"

"This is the story of my first and legendary, and for you called Desfrán"

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It would be nice to hear what you have to say on this, @DutchPassionTony

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Before people kick off, I see no problems with GlennOrch’s post, I do not necessarily agree with all of his conclusions.

I have talked with Charlie in the past, he is a brilliant breeder and a very nice man in real life, I think he deserves recognition for the years of breeding work he put into creating destroyer.

I cook up a few lines myself, I do not patent them, once they are out there, to me its down to the people who grow what I selected how they use them or what crosses they make from them, I do not agree with people owning genes, but do feel that recognition should be attributed to the work creating the original line..

It saddens me that Charlie is giving up breeding because he is one of the few people who I have talked with that has a true love of our unique favourite plant. I wish there were many more small breeders but like me Charlie is getting old.

At least one selection of his work will live on in DP’s Desfran S1 line.

I hope no one minds my opinion on the subject, if Tony wishes to delete my input, I will not be offended as this is his forum, having looked at Automaster’s grow it gives tribute to him as a grower, DP’s S1 and to the quality of Charlies breeding originating the strain and refining it over the years.

All the best Ot1.

Hello OT1,

Besides I never exchanged any words before with you, I've been told many times about you and I know a few stories like the one with your Haze line. As a preservationist and heirloom seed collector I have nothing but big respect for you and Wolfmann too, just as I have big respect for Charlie and many other breeders, OG growers or contributors to the cannabis community. Not just for the commercial breeding they could have done but especially for their contributions to preserve rare old strains and all the stuff they shared and did for the scene without any other interests.

I think we are entering some muddy waters when we debate about this. While I agree that the plant is free and there's no control over it once it's shared, one can't deny that when you invest hard work and years to create a strain it should be respected and recognized, and of course others shouldn't be allowed to take over it. I have serious moral questions about the legitimacy of such behaviours. The problem is that with the current legal situation of the plant and this culture, there isn't any regulation of the market, legal rights of creators and such. So the greedy companies without morals can almost do whatever they want.

When you buy a book or a music CD from a band, besides you pay for it you aren't anything near to be legitimated to start selling copies of that book on your own and for your very own profit. Especially without givin credit to the original creators of such work. Can you imagine that I translate Marijuana Botany to Spanish and I start selling it as my own book...? Or buying an expensive wine and repacking it and selling under your own brand? Its a pure SCAM, right?

And of course if you buy whatever line and want to use for your own breeding projects, good for you. But at least, give credit to the original breeders... after all, that's what the lines are meant to be, to be enjoyed and grown. But I think that selling S1 from a cut from another seedbank and making S1s seeds to make some easy cash with ZERO effort is just shameless. Same about buying a nice and stable strain, making F2 and selling as if own. It's ridiculous in my opinion but the problem is that people don't even know most of this stuff. They don't research a bit before buying a strain like what's the lineage, what' will be the best representation or the original breeder who could offer the best seeds and provide also some customer service and support and so on.

Cannabiogen is a seedbank and Charlie invests his time, money and effort with his strains, he used to do that for a living until some time ago. It seems he just realized it doesn't make sense such hard work and effort to create strains that will be ripped of by others. So at the end of the day, nobody spends money in the original works but there are tons of others selling and making money based off them. Not only ripped-off strains like the Destroyer, Panama, Pakistan Chitral and many others that have been copied and even sold bulk nowadays, how many seedbanks are selling other CBGs strains in pure form? And also many other seedbanks as ACE that have been leeching on Charlies' works and effort for years like if it was their own and without even giving credit to the original breeder who spent years and hard work with them. Guess I can understand Charlie's point and lack of motivation or decission to stop breeding commercially nowadays. What's the point on all that hardwork if only others are gonna get paid for it or even get recognized?? Charlie said many times that CBG only stayed because of the fertilizer sales but seeds were making him loose money for years. So what's the point on keep risking oneself so much with the plants and working so much to release new strains for others to rip off and make money off them? Most people won't even appreciate those strains against the other commercial strains that are simply S1s from gifted clones o renamed strains from other breeders. Sad thing is that many other growers won't be able to keep enjoying his strains once that proper breeders dissapear.

Yeah, I agree that no one owns genes nor plants, or at least landraces... but let's be objective, landraces don't grow alone in the nature either, they are the result of decades of breeding work from the original traditional farmers and also the geography isolation and climate what makes a landrace to evolve in something unique. But they are the result of human selection and adaptation. Otherwise we would be still smoking ditchweed from the Himalayas. But instead, cannabis was spread by the man all over the world and the plant evolved in such a big diverstity that by the way, it's being lost too. But then took one of this landraces and work for years with them to improve them... and create proper hybrids to be sold as your very own creations. Of course Destroyer and many others are CBG's strains, they created them from landraces, not even from other hybrids like skunk or whatever like most people does. So, big respect please, as we speak about proper plant breeders like Skunkman, DJ Short, Nevil and so on. Not just pollen chuckers like most nowadays.

But hybrids are a whole different thing in my opinion... they are the results of someone's certain criteria, tastes and hard work. I would really love to see how Dutch Passion bring a thai landrace and they spent years of hardwork to breed them, cut flowering, get rid of hermies and end with homogeneous and decent plants to breed with. Then the same with colombian and mexican strains and try to mix them in the proper way so the hybrid offers something else... for me cannabis hybrids are just like any other art expression form. Does the hibrid add something to the palette? is it better than the separate strains? what kind of plants would mix well in terms of high, flavours and so on? otherwise it doesn't makes sense. So this is what should be credited and for me, what DP did with the Desfran is plain thievery. otherwise, I recommend DP to start purchasing some landraces from Real Seed Co or take the time to make good contacts to get other proper landraces and breeding work, so they can have fresh genes to breed proper hybrids.So they could legitimely write nice strain descriptions about all the hard and long breeding work to create such strains.

Ovbioulsy the small artisan seedbanks and breeders can't invest so much in advertising and all that stuff, basically because they are too busy breeding with the plants at home. So at the end, it's like with anyhting else... big companies are pushing the experienced artisans to dissapear and that's a big big loss in my opinion, at the end of the day, we will have less options to choose between, so we will be less free as growers and customers.

Another point to keep in mind is the lack of information generally between growers... most nowadays grow autoflowering or S1 seeds, most don't even care if they are just growing another shitty skunk that will make them sleep in the couch or a great breeding work with outstanding lines, using brand new genes (different than Skunk, Norther Lights, Haze and Afghan which is 95% of world commercial drug strains) and with brand new flavours and highs. But we need to educate growers too... otherwise they will keep thinking that Moby Dick are "proper sativas" and buying new versions of skunks that just smoke, smell and stone the same, or thinking that S1 seeds are the panacea... instead of maybe buy some standard seeds and make their own so they and their friends could be growing them for years without having to spend one single cent and depend on the market.

But hey, the big greedy companies don't want that! They prefer the growers to stay ignorant otherwise they won't sell no seed! That's why they are hyping all the trendy strains, or even the autoflowering strains, so people can't even keep clones! They are seedmarket junkies right? But that's not cannabis, that's just the watered down version of cannabis that companies want to offer to us.

Canabussines... what a shame. But hey, if the market was more educated it would be a whole different thing.

Vibes.

Edited by GlennOrch
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I have decided to draw conclusion; Automaster

Charlie said many times that CBG only stayed because of the fertilizer sales but seeds were making him loose money for years. As there where no feminized seeds at that time, on the planet.

Then he continued not for the love of money.

And that like, Charlie, Fran, Alberto, Henk, and many other higher terrestrial plant scientists, they do it because they are driven to find a way for everyone to know the benefits.

That is "Altruism" the meaning to assist "Other Peoples" Alteri. ie

"Altruism can be defined as an individual (or organism) performing an action which is at a cost to themselves (e.g., in quality of life, time, or pleasure), but benefits, either directly or indirectly, another third-party individual, without the expectation of reciprocity or compensation for that action."

The query is;

Altruism can be distinguished from feelings of loyalty, in that whilst the latter is predicated upon social relationships, altruism does not consider relationships. Unlike Egoism

Therefore when an Altruist scientist gives away a clone or a bean, he dose not consider relationships, he knows it may be of "Disadvantage" but still only the good it can do for others, he thinks of. And dose not seek, intrinsic awards, rewards or gratification from others, when committing this act of friendship.

The trait appears to be common in the C community. And is truly global. As a strain from say Spain turns up in Argentina............. so not so much ripping off, as friendly donations and or collaborations, and information giving.

Like chiasmata (from the Greek khiasma: to cross). .or swapp genetic material. A primordal "Altruistic"process.

Although all the best brains in the world suffer from it; Take "Henks" story;.....

In the beginning, and after 10+ years of work trying to isolate a way of developing "Female" only seeds, one of only 2 guy's on the planet attempting it, at that time. He one day discovers a 98% outcome (1987), he called the outcome, feminization, as 100% Female seeds, could not be achieved, 98% was usual though. hence the word Feminized

he then reported his finding to his immediate friends & colleagues, in the canna and scientific communities, in nl and abroad, who in true scientist style. Point blank refused to believe it had been done. Consequently he decided, the only way to prove this to them, is for them to experience it, for themselves.

This meant, leaning on his altruistic trust; Therefore he "Gave Them All The Strains" he had spent years developing into female only outcomes. This is a great altruistic act. No ripping, no squabbling, he just gave them to his friends, in the mid 80's, in the canna scientific community. They went on with those "Given" strains to develop most of the seed banks with fems on board we see today, For that reason, we now have a community;

"At The Surface" of Society". Charlie, Fran, Henk, Barney's & many others, are here now because of this break through, driven by altruism towards others. Charlie couldn't make a living from "Regular" seeds, same as most of the rest of the seed producers, including Henk.

Just to hard for the average canna wanna be, ditch the dealer,........ just to much work,.....'Regulars"...... theres no work with fems, (Now) in and out........so millions of new peoples entered the, our communities......

The great thing is; We Know Now, Who, These Great "Pioneers" are now, as before we did not. They are a group of top notch "Canna Scientist"........ with a Class "Canna Altruistic" streak.

There have been few new breakthroughs since feminization was discovered. But i see it like this;

Charlie or others, give away a strain, of thier own consent, knowing it may be to thier disadvantage, or benefit. Another breeder takes up the continued work with this genus. He then develops it into a more stable version after 7 years trying, F8 He then meet another scientific pioneer. Who has had interest in his strains in another country. (Argentina). He then decides after 7 years graft. To; "Give The Strain" a new tint by "Collaborating" on it, to and with that scientist.

That is his personal decision, and an altruistic one, for the good of all. The recipient was Henk van Dalen. Consequently the strain we now know as "DesFran" is now this side of the EU..................... one can imagine Charlies feelings for the strain, but imagine what it must feel like to have given, all your strains away to show people fems exist. And inadvertently creating a whole communicative group of canna growers. All developing and growing all the original strains you gave away to them,............ theres only one man who knows what that feels like. The term rip off dose not enter his mind or terminology of spoken word. More like, i just wanted to bring to wider peoples. Thankyou for that.

A serious lot of altruistic maneuvers have brought this strain to us. "DesFran" The wider communities. For that i personally thank anyone who was involved in this long history, of this strains journey to us. Automaster

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Hey AM... waiting on an update so I can take some notes :P

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it should all be in there G mate,............ as you are into the Df grow, now at flowering G............ if you need any specific issue assistance just Pm us, or slam it down here bro and i will do me best to get you the specifics you may need to enquire about bro........... no worries groffo mate.......... AM

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Will remain my best work of 2014.................... glad it was this end of the year................. now she is cured proper.......................... good job i got 15 days off !!.........stunning off out for a curry......... xmas to all.....AM

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Will remain my best work of 2014.................... glad it was this end of the year................. now she is cured proper.......................... good job i got 15 days off !!.........stunning off out for a curry......... xmas to all.....AM

Yeah, I got mixed up with another grower, forget that last post ;)

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In the end the smoke was so very nice................... i got some more on day 35, and in 7ltr pots they are much more under control, but with more flowers than in the 15ltr ??................ still one of me favorites, and unlike me to do the same strain twice, thats a first..... "DesFran"................ she is mental smoke................. Automaster

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@@AutoMaster mate, the moment you popped the 1st beans, I knew I had to get some for myself...... another DP strain for the list!!!

Edited by teehee

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