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troy

science vs religion

1,123 posts in this topic

photons aren't made of protons and electrons though.

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photons are considered massless i believe because they go beyond the "speed limit" of mass, the velocities and energies no longer have an effect in the same way, photons would destroy everything if they had mass because as it increases it's movement, the mass becomes larger and larger as in inertia, mass has many ways to actually be quantified, based on what specifically you're looking at, i asked you because i'd like to know what your thoughts of mass are, when trying to think of all of the types of energy at once, which how the universe works, it can be difficult to look at anything on its own, just quantifying what a photon actually is, is very difficult, i suppose it all depends on how much you consider to be enough.

I would conclude mass has to interact with matter and i don't think photons are considered a form of matter, depending on what you consider to be matter.

Edited by FunkyJazzJesus

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The one has a fundament that is always up for revision. It builds models and admits they are models. It arrives at shared, provisional truths.

The other has a fundament that never changes and isn't up for revision. It claims access to an Absolute Truth

NC

Those revisions don't come smoothly... they used to believe in the 4 elements, and even after that was replaced with the development of the periodic table, we can still take the wrong track... flogiston for example.

That said, you are spot on... especially that , that really tickles me lol

Edited by Rex Mundi

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photons are considered massless i believe because they go beyond the "speed limit" of mass,

In the Standard Model that is....

in my model, photons do have mass and they do go at velocity c. And I don't have a problem with that, at the photon level.

How fast do electrons travel in various mediums?

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In the Standard Model that is....

in my model, photons do have mass and they do go at velocity c. And I don't have a problem with that, at the photon level.

How fast do electrons travel in various mediums?

@@Rex Mundi

Electrons in an Hydrogen atom move at approximately 2,200 Kilometres per second. Less than 1% the speed of light. Relativistic characteristics like time dilation and increase in mass only occurs to a significant extent when you get above 98% of the speed of light then these relativistic characteristics start to really be felt.

Edited by Hir

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the speed of electrons is based of its interactions, meaning if energy allows electrons to move through a copper wire, the copper atoms have electrons in and must be able to exchange them, that limits the "speed" of electrons in that state, the copper electrons are replaced by electrons being removed from some other energy like coal, although of course again the universe is full of energy, so many interactions,in all different states and stages of change, apparently energy can neither be destroyed or created therefore, it must mean all energy is still the same ammount of energy, overall.

Although we were talking about photons, not electrons.

Edited by FunkyJazzJesus

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photons aren't made of protons and electrons though.

I never said they were.

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the speed of electrons is based of its interactions, meaning if energy allows electrons to move through a copper wire, the copper atoms have electrons in and must be able to exchange them, that limits the "speed" of electrons in that state, the copper electrons are replaced by electrons being removed from some other energy like coal, although of course again the universe is full of energy, so many interactions,in all different states and stages of change, apparently energy can neither be destroyed or created therefore, it must mean all energy is still the same ammount of energy, overall.

Although we were talking about photons, not electrons.

@@FunkyJazzJesus

Electrons in a copper wire typically drift in the direction of current at 2 or 3 cms per second. Electricity isn't an actual movement of electrons. The effect of electricity in a copper wire at room temperature travels at 78% of the speed of light but that isn't electrons moving through the wire.

Edited by Hir
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i know you didn't, but you're not really clarifying what you mean, you're saying this "standard model" says this and yours doesn't but you don't explain either, so i am presuming you just don't really see the difference between these things, which is why i said that, as you said electrons have mass, protons have mass, so photons do, and i didn't really get that, you're just saying they do, im not sure we're using the same rules of how we deciede how or what something is here, you haven't really explained is all i'm saying, when you're, dare i say, scrutinising theories and insights that do openly try to examine the nature of the universe and that is incredibly difficult.

So now maybe its "time" for you explain? (you're probably feeling the memory boundary that separates what you think you're outputting because of the grand feeling of attachment to all of your memories and the awe it brings and trying to attatch words to what you specifically feel in your mind, when we use the same words as i or others but do not think the same things)

Edited by FunkyJazzJesus
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@@FunkyJazzJesus

Electrons in a copper wire typically drift in the direction of current at 2 or 3 cm per second. Electricity isn't an actual movement of electrons. The effect of electricity in a copper wire at room temperature travels at 78% of the speed of light but that isn't electrons moving through the wire.

 

so, you're saying electricity is not the movement of electrons?

you're saying that electricity is the interaction of electrons and the magnetic field is the energy, thats what we call electricity? which is why it moves at this speed?

I think i may have just worded it in a funny way, its the way i think about the "movement" of electrons and how the electrons exchange their energy between one and another.

Edited by FunkyJazzJesus

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The best analogy I have seen to explain the phenomena is a tube filled with ping pong balls. You push a ping pong ball into this tube and one falls out the other end. The effect has moved the full length of the tube but the ball that just went in did not travel to the end to cause the ball to drop out. There is probably a youtube demonstration, I'll look for it.

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The best analogy I have seen to explain the phenomena is a tube filled with ping pong balls. You push a ping pong ball into this tube and one falls out the other end. The effect has moved the full length of the tube but the ball that just went in did not travel to the end to cause the ball to drop out. There is probably a youtube demonstration, I'll look for it.

 

i tried to make that analogy by saying that the copper wire is full of electrons or balls in this case and that to move an electron out, another electron must move in.

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@@FunkyJazzJesus

Electrons in a copper wire typically drift in the direction of current at 2 or 3 cms per second. Electricity isn't an actual movement of electrons. The effect of electricity in a copper wire at room temperature travels at 78% of the speed of light but that isn't electrons moving through the wire.

Thank you Hir, that is perfect, you got to the point I wanted to make, electron drift.... and the way you describe it above is DC, I won't quibble about the distance as that depends on the current (amps), but if you apply it to AC 50 Hz, then how far do the electrons travel in each half cycle? Using your above numbers that is 0.02 - 0.03 cm, in other words, it is wiggling around on the spot.

So, if it is not electrons being delivered from the power station to my house, what is it?

Edited by Rex Mundi

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i know you didn't, but you're not really clarifying what you mean, you're saying this "standard model" says this and yours doesn't but you don't explain either, so i am presuming you just don't really see the difference between these things, which is why i said that, as you said electrons have mass, protons have mass, so photons do, and i didn't really get that, you're just saying they do, im not sure we're using the same rules of how we deciede how or what something is here, you haven't really explained is all i'm saying, when you're, dare i say, scrutinising theories and insights that do openly try to examine the nature of the universe and that is incredibly difficult.

So now maybe its "time" for you explain?

I am questioning the currently accepted model of the Universe, that is what I mean by the Standard Model, the model that BBC Horizon keeps broadcasting, the model that Brian Cox proposes on all his science programs, the model they teach in schools and uni's... I don't have to explain that surely?

I do have a different model myself, but I don't really see why you think I have to explain it... it is only a model, and I'm still working on it.

I have asked how can the SM accept that both Newton and Einstein are right, when one says gravity IS a force, and the other says it only appears to us as a force.

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as you said electrons have mass, protons have mass, so photons do, and i didn't really get that, you're just saying they do, im not sure we're using the same rules of how we deciede how or what something is here,

I said photons have mass, you asked me to define it, I said that protons and electrons have mass... why is it so difficult to imagine that photons have mass too? Photons are made of stuff, very very small, much much smaller than an electron, it is a particle, I imagine it like a tiny planet spinning on it's axis at velocity c, and moving through space at velocity c..

Same rules?

What rules? My rules are not defined by Einstein, so anything he says about spacetime dilation, or mass increase or whatever.... that's not my model, that is the SM model, and I haven't yet researched that time dilation stuff, and when I do I will perhaps find a different explanation, or more probably that is is just not valid... whatever...

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