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troy

science vs religion

1,145 posts in this topic

There's a few objections I have the main one being about the start of "human being "

The science is pretty clear as to when we develop certain things the nervous system being one

I also stand by the Catholic church being in the same league as westboro and the like .sure they make a lot of noise and promote nonsense

But the church is promoting not using condoms and refusing woman the right to choose and they have a much louder voice

The Catholic church is killing Africans (ongoing others ) as we speak

Any way your correct off topic

Good to have you back

Get growing fella :hippy:

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One more just for clarity

No one is saying they can't Co exist and the two have a long history together (lematre and the big bang )

The problem only arises when for instance the church makes a scientific claim such as condoms have microscopic holes therefore there no good

Or the earth is 6000 years old,the church then tries to make laws regarding these claims to which we all have to abide

The above are just examples :smokin:

Forgot to add

Architecturally speaking I love churches and mosques

Edited by bazzad9

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That`s quite an assumption mate

Hiya,

True - I don't doubt many people have, after their own analysis, rejected religion - and that's a valid personal conclusion, one I respect.

But for me the game was up mainly when the national churches became riven with disagreement and found it increasingly difficult to promote/defend or even articulate their message in the face of a changing society. They started to be led by society, as opposed to what they claimed to believe.

Anyway lets not go offtopic, can discuss elsewhere if you like.

Cheers

BF

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The Catholic Church prescribes not using condoms globally, not specifically Africa.

Africa has a nominal Catholic make up comrising something like 20% of it's population. Many European and South American countries have twice the number of nominal Catholics, yet they do not suffer, to anything like Africas extent, from the same perceived consequences of not using condoms.

If Africa has a problem it may be the non availability or means for using condoms. That in turn, is a purely secular problem, nothing whatever to do with the any particular Church, and is therefore a purely humanitarian problem.

Edited by daviie

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How do you know which religion is right then ? Why Catholicism ?

I dont see religions as competitors, though of course they have often competed in various ways (usually fighting).

The "we are the best" nature of humanity*, I agree, has harmed the credibility of religion in the past in that regard.

(*I support Aberdeen Football Club. They are shite, but would I ever admit that to someone in person? Would I fuck. No, I would say "We are the best". lol)

I see religions as really the same thing but in a different tradition. Just like humans also have different cultures, customs, languages etc - but all serve the same ultimate purpose in their respective societies, to communicate, to organise a society etc.

Today, instead of sending Catholic Armies to the near East, the Catholic Church organises interfaith gatherings in Assisi. JP2 did the first one in 1986 I think. Benedict did another recently. Religious leaders of all types come together to discuss shared values etc. Even secular / atheist philosphers are invited to contribute - AC Grayling at first accepted an invite from Benedict, but then didnt go.

For me, that's the modern face of proper inter-religious (and religious-atheist) dialogue and co-operation. It should not be conducted via the use of Heavy Cavalry or AK-47s, as so often in the past.

And what would you say to somebody who told you they were gay ?

Nothing, is there a standard response like? lol

If anything i would be baffled as to why they were informing me of their personal business. I do not go around telling people I am heterosexual.

I vaguely know three gay men (from 3 separate groups of friends).

My fiancee's cousin is a lesbian, I have often socialised with her family - including the cousin and her girlfriend - most recently we all had Christmas dinner together.

One of my mate's sister is a lesbian, and lives with a female partner, though Ive never met her personally.

Gay people are just people like you or I. It's true that Catholicism takes the view that the traditional, heterosexual family is the fundamental building block of human society and is to be valued above all else, but Catholics do not dislike or seek to harm gay people.

In Uganda in recent years, there was a large movement - broadly supported by the Ugandan Anglican Church, (Church of England), to introduce the death penalty for gay people. Fortunately this did not succeed, mainly due to international pressure I think. But in Uganda, the Catholic Church was the only indigenous religious group to openly oppose the move and declare it Un-Christian. No surprise that wasn't in the British headlines.

:yinyang:

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I find the whole argument of science vs religion to be a bit of a joke. The whole idea of education and scientific study was developed by religious institutions, the very first places of education were first set up by religious institutions, some of todays and greatest and oldest universities were originally founded by religious institutions. How many of histories greatest minds came from religious institutions - have a look at astronomy, how many of todays top astronomers are also men of the cloth?

Seriously if you have a problem with science don't beat up a scientist, bash a priest, after all it was their institutions who set up the whole idea of scientific study.

nomad

Great post fella! :smoke:

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Well I need to shoot for now, but:

Good to see you back BudFan

Thanks' date=' Stawb! Good to see you still here too!

Good to have you back

Get growing fella

Thanks man - and I will, no fear!

I tried to do a crop last autumn. It was the 1st time I had tried to take cuttings myself, from my own mother. (I have had great success before from seed, and even using my mates spindly, pestilence and bug ridden clones).

However, I made a balls of it. In retrospect, the problems were the room was too hot, leading me to keep the cubes too wet and it was all just an effing disaster from there on!

I think I was a bit complacent, as from this great site and books etc I had always managed to "get it right first time" before.

Onwards and upwards though!

Forgot to add

Architecturally speaking I love churches and mosques

A man of taste!

Take it easy

BF

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"I dont see religions as competitors, though of course they have often competed in various ways (usually fighting)."

That's not the point budfan ,the point is they can't all be true,they all claim to have that answer to a righteous life

So how do you tell which one is correct

Either one of them is right or there all wrong . :smokin:

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Double post

Edited by bazzad9

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The Catholic Church prescribes not using condoms globally, not specifically Africa.

Africa has a nominal Catholic make up comrising something like 20% of it's population. Many European and South American countries have twice the number of nominal Catholics, yet they do not suffer, to anything like Africas extent, from the same perceived consequences of not using condoms.

If Africa has a problem it may be the non availability or means for using condoms. That in turn, is a purely secular problem, nothing whatever to do with the any particular Church, and is therefore a purely humanitarian problem.

h ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids?mobile-redirect=false

Not exactly helping :smokin:

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More on the pope and condoms in africa

h ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7947460.stm

doesnt sound helpfull

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Hi Budfan,

Catholics do not dislike or seek to harm gay people.
Maybe not all Catholics but I think as an institution it is Homophobic.
Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law.

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Brian Cox :

He is a member of the High Energy Physics group at the University of Manchester, and works on the ATLAS experiment at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)[2][3] at CERN, near Geneva, Switzerland. He is working on the R&D project of the FP420 experiment in an international collaboration to upgrade the ATLAS and the CMS experiment by installing additional, smaller detectors at a distance of 420 metres from the interaction points of the main experiments.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Cox_(physicist)

Religion and Science compete for the answer to the question of the ultimate nature of reality in terms of where the universe came from and how we come to be here. Science is moving forward on this question whereas religion is woefully short of credible answers.

Edited by troy
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"I dont see religions as competitors, though of course they have often competed in various ways (usually fighting)."

That's not the point budfan ,the point is they can't all be true,they all claim to have that answer to a righteous life

So how do you tell which one is correct

Either one of them is right or there all wrong . :smokin:

Thanks bazzad , I thought my point was obvious and this is exactly what I meant

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Some related thoughts, pondered by this old and grey Euro/Native American mongrel:

One day you will have an epiphany and be motivated to run through the streets shouting it to the rooftops, but you should resist that urge, as most folks aren't interested, and despite how convinced you are that you are right, the odds are overwhelming that you will die dead wrong.

Man created God in his own image.

Shaman, the second oldest profession in the world.

Seeing is believing and believing is seeing.

The world is full of folks, who are damn sure of things that ain't so.

My god can kick your god's ass!

Let's go kill one of the creators creations, to honor the creator and spread his holy word!

Life was meant to be lived joyously!

Life is not the cards you are dealt, but how you play them.

Now that my hut has burned, I have a better view of the rising moon!

Truth is shorter than fiction.

The beginning and ending of the cycle of infinity is incomprehensible.

The fish trap exists only because of the fish.

The poorer the product, the harder the sell.

The wild goose did not mean to cast its reflection upon the still waters, nor did the still waters have a mind with which to perceive it.

We create our own heavens and hells by our actions, because what goes around, comes around.

The right hand washes the left.

I could go on, but I have no formal personal religious belief, and the Great Spirit that I do believe in, falls closer to Zen and the Tao. I have grown to believe that we are most likely all individual cells of energy, in the same body of energy (this universe) and as such are one and the same.

In that vein, as energy, the laws of physics suggest that we can be neither created, nor destroyed, only changed in form.

There are of course the laws of entropy, which tells us that energy wave forms in constant collision with other energy wave forms, will lose energy through entropy and heat or light, which is sort of how I see a miss fit on this plane of consciousness, living in the hell that they have created by being in disharmony and sinking further and further into the black hole.

That brings me to my concept of sin, and that is creating disharmony in the universe. It doesn't take a list of commandments to see that killing someone is disharmonious to them and those whom loved them, or that stealing is disharmonious to the victim, etc...........

That doesn't mean I don't believe in not protecting yourself by thwarting the disharmony created by others, as clearly all extant life has antibodies to protect themselves against parasites and predators. Life unable to do so adequately, simply becomes extinct.

Edited by Graywolf

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If I could just come back to this point

"You mention abortion -did you not read about what I wrote above, that the Mainstream Christian view of abortion is informed by the science of Human Embryology, which states that a new human being is created at the moment of conception? "

If I where to accept this as true then that would mean your God is responsible for far more terminations than any clinic could manage

Its the only logical conclusion without the use of special pleading .

:smokin:

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